Curse

Selket · Mar 15, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dronte

Wow. Its not all about recharge, if you start casting remove hex you'll end up removing parasitic bond or wastrels worry from yourself >< veil is instant remove

Hi,

Its RA, you cast remove hex half way through his casting of feint, supsup.

Dronte · Mar 15, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selket

Hi,

Its RA, you cast remove hex half way through his casting of feint, supsup.

The first time it works, maybe. But good luck concentrating on that later.

Selket · Mar 15, 2009, 09:08 PM // 21:08

o ok

Cuz you know, RA matches last super-long.

Do I have to write a how2assassin guide now :<

Celeborn10 · Mar 15, 2009, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selket

o ok

Cuz you know, RA matches last super-long.

Do I have to write a how2assassin guide now :<

Considering that the necro can put Parasitic Bond on you in roughly 1.2 seconds (40/40 set) and Remove Hex is a 1 second cast good luck with that. The best shutdown is knocking them down and killing them. Admittedly it worked better when Shadowsteps did not have aftercast on them but a caster that you kill without letting them cast is a caster you didn't have to waste time and energy on reactively playing on their terms.

If you must bring hex removal on an Assassin, bring Holy Veil+Disrupting Dagger. And to Cynderella, spamming just Palm Strike amounts to roughly 15dps. Compare that to the massive buffs in self-healing that split builds have gotten recently and see how much of a dent you make in their health. In essence you're letting them dictate the terms of the fight to you.

moriz · Mar 16, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selket

Do I have to write a how2assassin guide now :<

sorry avibear, that guide's been written a long time ago by yours truly. well at least, the very first one.

Jeydra · Mar 16, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I will stop arguing with you here. We play totally different games.

You're not playing different games, you're playing in different arenas of the same game.

You see, X Crytherea X is specifically playing in RA. RA is a form of PvP in its own right and very different from elsewhere. In RA things are not coordinated, and unless your team is uncommonly good you are very much on your own. This means two things:

1. You might very well be alone on spikes.
2. You might be the target of an extraordinary amount of melee hate, with nobody to remove it (or with the Monk overloaded keeping red bars up already).

Now more detail. In the case of #1, if you are alone in a spike, you had better have Blades of Steel. It's the single most damaging Assassin attack skill, without which it's hard to score a kill. It's not a matter of KD vs. no KD - it's a matter of killing before the target gets healed (if he has a Monk), or killing before you die (if your team has no Monk). While in the frontlines Assassins are vulnerable - they are AL 70 characters after all without strong self-heals. You need to kill in as little time as possible and then get the heck out of there.

So compare the two chains. Palm Strike -> Trampling -> Falling Lotus -> Horns of the Ox -> Falling Lotus -> Twisting Fangs is a dangerous chain, I don't doubt. It has two KDs, and while it's not enough to kill someone from max HP (assuming he's not running Superior runes) it will leave them pretty close to death. An Assassin with this build will shut down a Monk pretty good, especially if the Monk doesn't have stances. Another player + the Assasin will kill quite simply. On the other hand, it is fairly slow even with an IAS - and Sin IAS's got nerfed with Flail - and since it's slow there's ample opportunity for a Monk to heal, even if he's just looking at red bars. There're many times when I survived this chain with enough time to Blind the Sin after I get up, and then heal up with Aura of Restoration.

The build X Crytherea X posted, Palm Strike -> Trampling -> Falling Lotus -> Twisting Fangs -> Palm -> Blades of Steel has more damage. I've not actually seen this build in action, but it is definitely more dangerous. It has Deep Wound and Blades of Steel after all. Alone, you will have a better chance of scoring a kill with this build. You'll also have a better chance to catch the opposing Monk unaware (if there's one). As for monkstomping, things haven't changed. You're not going to be able to kill a Monk alone with either build, but with another player alongside both builds will kill.

Conclusion - I believe the chain X Crytherea X posted is superior in RA, and probably also in AB. Anywhere else the other Sin chain is better.

For point #2, I play blindbot myself in RA a fair bit and I'll say this. Blind Assassins deal no damage. If I run into an Assassin with no condition removal and he has no Monk, I'll simply keep him out of play for the entire match. If I run into an Assassin with no condition removal and he has a Monk, I'll overwhelm the Monk's energy with Blind, until he can't remove it while still keeping his teammates alive. With the build I run I can even keep two players Blind, and I will do it. I will thoroughly incapacitate any Assassin who uses the first build. It might be so bad that he literally can't do anything the whole match except spam Palm Strikes.

If the Assassin has Mending Touch, things change. Now I have to engage in Blinding Flash vs. Mending Touch duels. BFlash wins eventually, but crucially, not at once. Early into the clash the Assassin has his chances of unloading damage, especially while I'm summing up each opponent to see who's dangerous and who's not. It also means that I can't keep two people Blind anymore. This is a very large difference indeed.

Compare as well vs. other sources of Blind. Blinding Surge is more or less the same as Blinding Flash for the purposes concerned, and it's a matter of outplaying the blindbot. Other common sources of Blind are: Signet of Midnight (destroyed by Mending Touch), Steam (also destroyed by Mending Touch), Ebon Dust Aura (nothing can be done about this one - dodge the attacks), Throw Dirt (destroyed by Mending Touch).

In short, I agree entirely with this statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Crytherea X

yeah but if a blindbot or any average nec so much as looks at you, you can expect to spend most of the match doing pretty much nothing. and dont tell me "kill him first/run away/wait for it to wear off/let your monk remove it", nothing beats removing it yourself right when you need to. i can even do this mid-combo, it must surprise the shit out of the poor antimelee im slaying.

now if you were talking about TA, i would gladly leave the cleanup to the designated guy on the team and possibly bring a bar like that one.

And the build he posted is better than the 'standard' Palm Strike builds for RA.

PS: Against the average blindbot and antimelee Necro in RA you'll have some chances to deal damage even without hex and condition removal. That's because most of them don't seek to actively shut you down, rather shutting you down once you start attacking them. What would it be like with self-cleanup? If it's a matter of bringing self-cleanup and sacrificing large amounts of damage for it, I can see an argument for taking the damage. With large amounts of damage + self-cleanup at the expense of a second KD, I think it's a clear choice. The only real problem I have with the bar is the lack of a shadowstep, and really, any Assassin that runs up to Palm Strike is simply screaming for me to throw a Blinding Flash his way, Mend Touch or no Mend Touch ...

Bobby2 · Mar 16, 2009, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Now more detail. In the case of #1, if you are alone in a spike, you had better have Blades of Steel. It's the single most damaging Assassin attack skill, without which it's hard to score a kill. It's not a matter of KD vs. no KD - it's a matter of killing before the target gets healed (if he has a Monk), or killing before you die (if your team has no Monk). While in the frontlines Assassins are vulnerable - they are AL 70 characters after all without strong self-heals. You need to kill in as little time as possible and then get the heck out of there.

HotO can be timed. Spikes can be called. The threat of an largely unconditional KD interrupt makes people play differently, ie, allows you to pressure while going at it solo. BoS damage does not provide this in any way.

On killing asap: yes. /W for Flurry, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So compare the two chains. Palm Strike -> Trampling -> Falling Lotus -> Horns of the Ox -> Falling Lotus -> Twisting Fangs is a dangerous chain, I don't doubt. It has two KDs, and while it's not enough to kill someone from max HP (assuming he's not running Superior runes) it will leave them pretty close to death. An Assassin with this build will shut down a Monk pretty good, especially if the Monk doesn't have stances. Another player + the Assasin will kill quite simply. On the other hand, it is fairly slow even with an IAS - and Sin IAS's got nerfed with Flail - and since it's slow there's ample opportunity for a Monk to heal, even if he's just looking at red bars. There're many times when I survived this chain with enough time to Blind the Sin after I get up, and then heal up with Aura of Restoration.

One of those Lotuses is Falling Spider, right? Anyway, Poison isn't worth it. You can just PS-Trampling-FLS-dual1-PS-dual2 for largely the same result. Saves you a slot for Wild Blow if stances -really- bother you.

And again, Flurry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

For point #2, I play blindbot myself in RA a fair bit and I'll say this. Blind Assassins deal no damage. If I run into an Assassin with no condition removal and he has no Monk, I'll simply keep him out of play for the entire match. If I run into an Assassin with no condition removal and he has a Monk, I'll overwhelm the Monk's energy with Blind, until he can't remove it while still keeping his teammates alive. With the build I run I can even keep two players Blind, and I will do it. I will thoroughly incapacitate any Assassin who uses the first build. It might be so bad that he literally can't do anything the whole match except spam Palm Strikes.

Blindbots are a drag. But hey, they are to any melee. Blind durations are pretty tight, though. I'm often able to HotO the recast just as the initial Blind wears off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If the Assassin has Mending Touch, things change. Now I have to engage in Blinding Flash vs. Mending Touch duels. BFlash wins eventually, but crucially, not at once. Early into the clash the Assassin has his chances of unloading damage, especially while I'm summing up each opponent to see who's dangerous and who's not. It also means that I can't keep two people Blind anymore. This is a very large difference indeed.

Apart from the fact that you can always kite (!) while Shinde rubs his eyes. No Trampling, no problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

PS: Against the average blindbot and antimelee Necro in RA you'll have some chances to deal damage even without hex and condition removal. That's because most of them don't seek to actively shut you down, rather shutting you down once you start attacking them. What would it be like with self-cleanup? If it's a matter of bringing self-cleanup and sacrificing large amounts of damage for it, I can see an argument for taking the damage. With large amounts of damage + self-cleanup at the expense of a second KD, I think it's a clear choice. The only real problem I have with the bar is the lack of a shadowstep, and really, any Assassin that runs up to Palm Strike is simply screaming for me to throw a Blinding Flash his way, Mend Touch or no Mend Touch ...

Heh?

My argument with Cytherea was [twisting fangs][blades of steel] VS [horns of the ox][twisting fangs].

Didn't even mention the horrid 'clean up' suite.

X Cytherea X · Mar 16, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Considering that the necro can put Parasitic Bond on you in roughly 1.2 seconds (40/40 set) and Remove Hex is a 1 second cast good luck with that.

no, FH+PB or IP+PB will, more often than not, take 2+ seconds. because 1. ra necs like to sit on their spear+shield and 2. even if they did go 40/40, they are more likely to NOT get a fastcast.

Quote:

The best shutdown is knocking them down and killing them. Admittedly it worked better when Shadowsteps did not have aftercast on them but a caster that you kill without letting them cast is a caster you didn't have to waste time and energy on reactively playing on their terms.

they can hex/blind you on the edge of their aggro circle. good luck knocking and killing any half-awake caster with that. YOU "play on their terms" the moment you press enter battle without cleanup.

Quote:

And to Cynderella, spamming just Palm Strike amounts to roughly 15dps. Compare that to the massive buffs in self-healing that split builds have gotten recently and see how much of a dent you make in their health. In essence you're letting them dictate the terms of the fight to you.

i instantly go into my combo (which hurts like hell) at the earliest opportunity (of relative cleanliness), which comes very quickly. an a/w cannot do the same; HE is the one playing on their terms.

Quote:

Blindbots are a drag. But hey, they are to any melee. Blind durations are pretty tight, though. I'm often able to HotO the recast just as the initial Blind wears off.

uh, the durations overlap the recharge on both bsurge and bflash. and what if they have both...

Quote:

Apart from the fact that you can always kite (!) while Shinde rubs his eyes. No Trampling, no problem.

they're crippled, genius...

it's funny how you all pose these silly scenarios to me, which i laugh at because i handle them on the field regularly with minimal effort, whilst your own builds cant do jack if placed in the very same scenarios you pose.

...

@Jeydra: right on, dude

Stealth Bomberman · Mar 16, 2009, 09:40 PM // 21:40

tbh, PS is a weak skill and weak players use it. [distracting shot] [signet of humility] and [diversion] make all PS sins look stupid. stop relying one a single skill that can be easily countered, and put some effort into a build.

Bobby2 · Mar 16, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

i instantly go into my combo (which hurts like hell) at the earliest opportunity (of relative cleanliness), which comes very quickly. an a/w cannot do the same; HE is the one playing on their terms.

That's a weird statement to make for an Assassin without a Shadowstep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

they're crippled, genius...

Oh yeah, and for how long again? Minus-Cripple% runes say hi, anyone can just walk it off (even without a speed boost).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

stuff that messes with your recharge...

So I heard those skills were hell on any sin build that has a smidgen of combo in it? Failreasoning

X Cytherea X · Mar 16, 2009, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

That's a weird statement to make for an Assassin without a Shadowstep.

does not compute...

Quote:

Oh yeah, and for how long again? Minus-Cripple% runes say hi, anyone can just walk it off (even without a speed boost).

long enough to mend-trample. even without my 5s palm (still like it tho). even with those -cripple runes (which nobody uses).

Jeydra · Mar 16, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

HotO can be timed. Spikes can be called. The threat of an largely unconditional KD interrupt makes people play differently, ie, allows you to pressure while going at it solo. BoS damage does not provide this in any way.

Are you more afraid of getting KD'ed or dying? Also - spikes can be called, but chances are your teammates won't follow you; having Horns does not necessarily make people play differently because the game might be over before they can do anything about it (after all they can't tell what your bar is at the start of the game).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Blindbots are a drag. But hey, they are to any melee. Blind durations are pretty tight, though. I'm often able to HotO the recast just as the initial Blind wears off.

See X Crytherea X's post. Both BFlash and BSurge have longer-lasting Blind duration than cooldown. Both also have a shorter cooldown than Mending Touch - that's why they win a brute-force BFlash / BSurge vs. Mend Touch duel. But ... as I wrote above having Mending Touch gives you more chances to outplay the blindbot, and BFlash / BSurge are not the only blind-inflicting tools out there. What about Signet of Midnight? Throw Dirt? Blind Was Mingsoon? Smoke Powder Defense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Apart from the fact that you can always kite (!) while Shinde rubs his eyes. No Trampling, no problem.

You can always kite while the Assassin is running after you Blind, too. Seems to me the question is whether a blindbot can get off his Blind on you. From personal experience, if you're already getting Palm Striked, it's too late unless luck blesses you with a HCT / QCT. If the Blind is on another character, then too bad.

Anyway whether or not it is an advantage to have self-cleanup is rather a stupid question. Of course it is, just like it's always better to have Supportive Spirit and 7 other skills than just 7 other skills and one blank spot. The real question is what you're giving up for that self-cleanup - in this case, Wild Blow, Flurry and the second KD vs. self-cleanup and Blades of Steel. I'm for the second option in RA. Without a shadowstep after all you're vulnerable to getting blinded the moment you step into aggro range. Must not forget that you can use the cleanup on your other characters as well (eg. BHA just lands on your team's Monk, you Mend him; the other team has a nasty Mesmer with Migraine and Frustration and Shatter + Drain Enchantment, you remove the hex).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

That's a weird statement to make for an Assassin without a Shadowstep.

It's even weirder for an Assassin with neither self-cleanup nor shadowstep. Against a good blindbot how do you even expect to deal damage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Oh yeah, and for how long again? Minus-Cripple% runes say hi, anyone can just walk it off (even without a speed boost).

Not everyone has -Cripple duration runes you know. I'll agree that not having a speedboost isn't good, although Palm Strike compensates somewhat. It takes an observant player to prekite you, so you usually get off the Palm Strike, and in any case if you have no self-cleanup you're relying on the 10% chance of getting hits through Blind (which you can do even if you have self-cleanup, you just don't use Mending Touch), so ...

EDIT: just realized you might mean having Horns allows you to unleash your entire chain before the blindbot can get off his blind. Doesn't matter though, the result is the same. You don't deal enough damage to kill; you leave them near death but not dead. The chain Shinde posted doesn't deal enough damage if it's interrupted during the second Palm Strike, the chain you posted doesn't deal enough damage even if it's unleashed completely. That's what I feel from experience playing against the builds. If you deal over 600 damage with that chain, I'll want to see evidence.

Stealth Bomberman · Mar 16, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

So I heard those skills werr hell on any sin build that has a smidgen of combo in it? Failreasoning

diverting a dual atk is no big deal u still have lead and off h. diverting the only skill that can continue ur useless chain i.e. PS is what im getting at. autoattacking ftw?

Bobby2 · Mar 17, 2009, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Man, this is gonna take a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Are you more afraid of getting KD'ed or dying? Also - spikes can be called, but chances are your teammates won't follow you; having Horns does not necessarily make people play differently because the game might be over before they can do anything about it (after all they can't tell what your bar is at the start of the game).

A/Mo = no War IAS = no KD lock possible unless you happen to be WotA. First PS cast kinda ruins the surprise here.

After the initial Trampling KD, there is nothing in Cytherea's chain that might prevent its spike being outhealed by Patient/WoH spam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

See X Crytherea X's post. Both BFlash and BSurge have longer-lasting Blind duration than cooldown. Both also have a shorter cooldown than Mending Touch - that's why they win a brute-force BFlash / BSurge vs. Mend Touch duel.

A dagger sin, kept out of melee efficiently, wouldn't be able to energy race the Blindbot anyway. Doomed tactic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What about Signet of Midnight?

Pack an IAS; Trample it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Throw Dirt?

Pack an IAS; Trample it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Blind Was Mingsoon?

Trouble, like Blindbots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Smoke Powder Defense?

I laugh at its pitiful duration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The real question is what you're giving up for that self-cleanup - in this case, Wild Blow, Flurry and the second KD vs. self-cleanup and Blades of Steel. I'm for the second option in RA. Without a shadowstep after all you're vulnerable to getting blinded the moment you step into aggro range.

Yay for Shadowsteps! Wild Blow is a questionable pick anyway. In RA, I'd sooner run Dark Prison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Must not forget that you can use the cleanup on your other characters as well (eg. BHA just lands on your team's Monk, you Mend him; the other team has a nasty Mesmer with Migraine and Frustration and Shatter + Drain Enchantment, you remove the hex).

Doing all these things while you should be exerting threat. Oh well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's even weirder for an Assassin with neither self-cleanup nor shadowstep. Against a good blindbot how do you even expect to deal damage?

The wisdom of going in without a shadow step... heh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Not everyone has -Cripple duration runes you know. I'll agree that not having a speedboost isn't good, although Palm Strike compensates somewhat. It takes an observant player to prekite you, so you usually get off the Palm Strike, and in any case if you have no self-cleanup you're relying on the 10% chance of getting hits through Blind (which you can do even if you have self-cleanup, you just don't use Mending Touch), so ...

Decent players adapting to the meta will have at least considered Cripple runes. No shadow step, no speed boost means you're limited to reactive play - you'll only enter combat when the enemy allows you to, whether this be a matter of choice or stupidity on their part differs between occasions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

EDIT: just realized you might mean having Horns allows you to unleash your entire chain before the blindbot can get off his blind.

Actually, it would be Trampling+IAS doing the work here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The chain Shinde posted doesn't deal enough damage if it's interrupted during the second Palm Strike, the chain you posted doesn't deal enough damage even if it's unleashed completely. That's what I feel from experience playing against the builds. If you deal over 600 damage with that chain, I'll want to see evidence.

Never did I state my chain did 600+ damage. Against an immobile, inactive target, it would be foolish to claim it be more effective than Cytherea's. What does matter here, in my opinion, is the time frame in which this damage is dealt (IAS) and how much of this damage can be negated (KD lock).

Technically, Cytherea's opponent would NEVER have to suffer the second PS, since they can just run away during Twisting and leave the poor IMS/shadowstep-less Sin hanging dry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

diverting a dual atk is no big deal u still have lead and off h. diverting the only skill that can continue ur useless chain i.e. PS is what im getting at. autoattacking ftw?

Smart Mesmers Divert lead attacks or shortcut offhands. Now go away.

Jeydra · Mar 17, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

After the initial Trampling KD, there is nothing in Cytherea's chain that might prevent its spike being outhealed by Patient/WoH spam.

No there isn't. There isn't anything in your chain that prevents the spike from being outhealed either. But that's not the point. You're missing two things:

1. There might not be a Monk in the enemy team. Depending on the time you're playing, the odds of facing a Monk / healer can be pretty small. If you are assuming the other team has a Monk you're in TA, not RA.
2. A single player cannot outdamage a Monk. Give a team 3 Monks and one damage of any kind (be it Warrior, Sin, turret, whatever), and they will not kill a team with a Monk, unless that team is completely terrible. If the Monk is under no pressure, of course you are going to be outhealed. Cytherea's chain will not kill an alert Monk. Neither will yours, nor anyone else's.

Taking into consideration these two factors ... what's your point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

A dagger sin, kept out of melee efficiently, wouldn't be able to energy race the Blindbot anyway. Doomed tactic.

You're again missing some things.

1. Not all blindbots are good. Actually most blindbots in RA are pretty bad. Very few of them will actually keep you blind the whole match, so much so that you have to run out of their range and try to surprise them, only to find that they are so alert that you're blind again once you run within their range. You'll find sometimes when you Monk you actually get blinded and / or someone puts Insidious Parasite on you. What does that say?
2. The blindbot has to deal damage. If all the blindbot does is keep you blind, then he's not exactly very useful. An Elementalist with dual attunements and Blinding Flash will keep you blind, but he can't deal damage either. To win the game he still has to throw out Lightning Orbs, etc. During this time he cannot blind you. It is a delicate balancing act between dealing damage and throwing out blinds. Against a Ranger without Mending Touch, Blinding Flash will keep him out of action for 8 seconds, plenty of time for the blindbot to cast Lightning Orb, refresh his attunements, kite, etc. Against one with Mending Touch the blindbot can still keep the Ranger blind (assuming he is good), but there are direct costs: he can't keep any other physical character blind, he can't cast Lightning Orb so much anymore, he needs to pay attention to when the Ranger is using Mending Touch, etc etc etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Pack an IAS; Trample it

You are only going to be able to do this if the guy is bad and attempts to blind you only after he gets Palm'ed. Not the point. In RA you do not know who has what until the fight starts. If for example you're killing a Mesmer and his team's Ranger runs up and uses Throw Dirt, it's way too late to 'pack an IAS, trample it'. You are out of action for 10+ seconds. Plenty of time for the Mesmer to kite, realize you have a dangerous chain and Signet of Midnight you the next time you try to spike him - and plenty of time for you to lose the match, as well. Even if for example all you're up against is Signet of Midnight, and even if you kill the Mesmer the first time, what are you going to do after he gets ressed? Next he'll run up to you and blind you, and it's too late to 'pack an IAS, trample it', and you're out of action for 10+ seconds again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Doing all these things while you should be exerting threat. Oh well.

If you have Mending Touch and do not use it on your Monk when he gets Dazed by BHA, you're bad regardless of what class you're playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Yay for Shadowsteps! Wild Blow is a questionable pick anyway. In RA, I'd sooner run Dark Prison.

If you'd rather run Dark Prison + Flurry instead of Mending Touch + Remove Hex / Holy Veil, fine with me, you're just more reliant on not facing antimelee and / or having a Monk. You'll do better when you have a Monk in the team who can clean you up, and worse when you don't. Actually against good teams you'll also need a defensive midliner in your team or you'll be under so much pressure the Monk has no time to clean you up. But it's your choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Decent players adapting to the meta will have at least considered Cripple runes. No shadow step, no speed boost means you're limited to reactive play - you'll only enter combat when the enemy allows you to, whether this be a matter of choice or stupidity on their part differs between occasions.

Not everyone in RA has cripple. Actually since the last nerf to Palm Strike the threatening sources of cripple are (off the top of my head) Crippling Slash and Melandru's Shot. Cripple runes against that isn't entirely necessary. Not having a shadow step nor speedboost is a definite drawback, but is it really impossible to close to melee range in a RA match? Obviously not. You are going to get hits in, because the other team has to stop to cast and fight your three teammates. Once you close to melee range Palm cripples. You'll get the chance even against good players - if you disagree, I dare you to write here that you've never been Palmed by an Assassin who doesn't have Dash before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Never did I state my chain did 600+ damage. Against an immobile, inactive target, it would be foolish to claim it be more effective than Cytherea's. What does matter here, in my opinion, is the time frame in which this damage is dealt (IAS) and how much of this damage can be negated (KD lock).

Technically, Cytherea's opponent would NEVER have to suffer the second PS, since they can just run away during Twisting and leave the poor IMS/shadowstep-less Sin hanging dry.

I tried it out at the Master of damage, the build did some 65 DPS and hit just under 600 total damage with the entire chain. If you can top that DPS post it here. You're right that the opponent does not have to suffer the second Palm Strike if he runs away immediately after Twisting. This is a dangerous drawback I agree, and means one of three things. Either run 14 Critical Strikes (use a Major), run a Crippling mod on the daggers and hope the other guy doesn't have anti-Cripple mods, or drop one of the self-cleanups (whatever is needed less by the RA meta at the time) for Dash. Unfortunate, but no choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Smart Mesmers Divert lead attacks or shortcut offhands. Now go away.

Smart Assassins use their chains off sequence and get rid of Diversion.

Celeborn10 · Mar 17, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Smart Mesmers Divert lead attacks or shortcut offhands. Now go away.

And it is dreadfully easy to Dshot the Palm Strike especially if the Assassin is running to touch range without any IMS or Shadowstep. Heck I sometimes even Glyph of Essence+Diversion on them for the hilarity.

Quote:

they can hex/blind you on the edge of their aggro circle. good luck knocking and killing any half-awake caster with that. YOU "play on their terms" the moment you press enter battle without cleanup.

As for fighting on my own terms, I prefer to create my own windows of opportunity. I like to use Disrupting Dagger after a KD or after a Shadowstep. It even helps against monks, 'rupt that WoH and you have negated a ~200hp heal. Mending Touch works nicely on a ranger because they can interrupt (and disable for 20 freaking seconds) whatever nasty stuff has been shutting them down. The same can be applied to an assassin albeit with less efficiency (Dshot could be interesting on an Assassin though). It isn't luck, it's intelligent and optimal use of a skill unlike hoping that the casters don't have 40/40 sets. Above all it assumes that you won't charge like a typical Narutard and will learn to assess where to apply the skills on your bar at the right time.

Check the warrior bars on PvXwiki. Do you see anything Remove Hex? There's one with Defy Pain but that is for retarded heros. Shockaxe doesn't require hex removal because it can create its own openings with 2 strong knockdowns and a disabling interrupt. Warriors can work well despite not having broken shadowsteps and having to build up adrenaline prior to a fight. Heck some pro monks even bring Dshot because disabling VoR>trying to remove it.

Bobby2 · Mar 17, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

1. There might not be a Monk in the enemy team. Depending on the time you're playing, the odds of facing a Monk / healer can be pretty small. If you are assuming the other team has a Monk you're in TA, not RA.

Might not be, might be. Prepare for the worst.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

2. A single player cannot outdamage a Monk. Give a team 3 Monks and one damage of any kind (be it Warrior, Sin, turret, whatever), and they will not kill a team with a Monk, unless that team is completely terrible. If the Monk is under no pressure, of course you are going to be outhealed. Cytherea's chain will not kill an alert Monk. Neither will yours, nor anyone else's.

Taking into consideration these two factors ... what's your point?

Highlighted for convenience since it is this truth that supports my thoughts. Solo kills without outside influence on either side are extremely rare... hence:

KD-lock is uber, and drastically increases the chance of success of any spike attempt. That's my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You're again missing some things.

1. Not all blindbots are good. Actually most blindbots in RA are pretty bad. Very few of them will actually keep you blind the whole match, so much so that you have to run out of their range and try to surprise them, only to find that they are so alert that you're blind again once you run within their range. You'll find sometimes when you Monk you actually get blinded and / or someone puts Insidious Parasite on you. What does that say?

Are you using bad opposition as an excuse to run bad builds?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

2. The blindbot has to deal damage. If all the blindbot does is keep you blind, then he's not exactly very useful. An Elementalist with dual attunements and Blinding Flash will keep you blind, but he can't deal damage either. To win the game he still has to throw out Lightning Orbs, etc. During this time he cannot blind you. It is a delicate balancing act between dealing damage and throwing out blinds. Against a Ranger without Mending Touch, Blinding Flash will keep him out of action for 8 seconds, plenty of time for the blindbot to cast Lightning Orb, refresh his attunements, kite, etc. Against one with Mending Touch the blindbot can still keep the Ranger blind (assuming he is good), but there are direct costs: he can't keep any other physical character blind, he can't cast Lightning Orb so much anymore, he needs to pay attention to when the Ranger is using Mending Touch, etc etc etc.

For all this, I don't think it's worth the secondary. Assassins aren't Rangers, I guess that plays a part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You are only going to be able to do this if the guy is bad and attempts to blind you only after he gets Palm'ed. Not the point. In RA you do not know who has what until the fight starts. If for example you're killing a Mesmer and his team's Ranger runs up and uses Throw Dirt, it's way too late to 'pack an IAS, trample it'. You are out of action for 10+ seconds.

Oh, so now we're considering the environment as well? If it's straight 1v1 Trampling+IAS wins out against SoM, I know this from experience. As for that Ranger: hey, at least he isn't BAing your squishies. Hope your team spends this 'free' time in a useful way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Plenty of time for the Mesmer to kite, realize you have a dangerous chain and Signet of Midnight you the next time you try to spike him and gets KD raepd for his efforts - lol - and plenty of time for you to lose the match, as well. Even if for example all you're up against is Signet of Midnight, and even if you kill the Mesmer the first time, what are you going to do after he gets ressed? Next he'll run up to you and blind you, and it's too late to 'pack an IAS, trample it', and you're out of action for 10+ seconds again

2 seconds is 2 seconds. I'm not afraid to break off from my current target in order to kite such a rez until PS has recharged, either.

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you have Mending Touch and do not use it on your Monk when he gets Dazed by BHA, you're bad regardless of what class you're playing.

My point was Sins shouldn't be packing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you'd rather run Dark Prison + Flurry instead of Mending Touch + Remove Hex / Holy Veil, fine with me, you're just more reliant on not facing antimelee and / or having a Monk. You'll do better when you have a Monk in the team who can clean you up, and worse when you don't. Actually against good teams you'll also need a defensive midliner in your team or you'll be under so much pressure the Monk has no time to clean you up. But it's your choice.

You're also be FAR more likely to be where and when it actually matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Not everyone in RA has cripple but those that do seem to do well for themselves. Actually since the last nerf to Palm Strike the threatening sources of cripple are (off the top of my head) Crippling Slash and Melandru's Shot. Cripple runes against that isn't entirely necessary. Not having a shadow step nor speedboost is a definite drawback, but is it really impossible to close to melee range in a RA match? Obviously not. You are going to get hits in, because the other team has to stop to cast and fight your three teammates. Once you close to melee range Palm cripples. You'll get the chance even against good players - if you disagree, I dare you to write here that you've never been Palmed by an Assassin who doesn't have Dash before.

Hm...

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Originally Posted by Bobby2

No shadow step, no speed boost means you're limited to reactive play - you'll only enter combat when the enemy allows you to, whether this be a matter of choice or stupidity on their part differs between occasions.

I have been Palmed by a Sin with a Shadowstep, but no Dash. Does that count?

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

I tried it out at the Master of damage, the build did some 65 DPS and hit just under 600 total damage with the entire chain. If you can top that DPS post it here.

AGAIN: I am fully aware of the total damage sacrifice I made. No need to test it, because I know Cytherea's is higher (even if it might not come out as fast). Big price to pay, KD-lock is worth every bit though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You're right that the opponent does not have to suffer the second Palm Strike if he runs away immediately after Twisting. This is a dangerous drawback I agree, and means one of three things. Either run 14 Critical Strikes (use a Major), run a Crippling mod on the daggers and hope the other guy doesn't have anti-Cripple mods, or drop one of the self-cleanups (whatever is needed less by the RA meta at the time) for Dash. Unfortunate, but no choice.

Pretty much correct. Still doesn't change the fact that A/Mo PS Sins can't keep someone powerless for 4s straight.

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

Smart Assassins use their chains off sequence and get rid of Diversion.

...if they spot it in time (which can be pretty hard against said Smart Mesmers).

Jeydra · Mar 17, 2009, 04:23 AM // 04:23

EDIT: I've decided there's no point continuing the quote wars. I've made my point, I've said what I want to say and I'm leaving it as it is (for now anyway). If you prefer to play your build in RA then by all means do so - what works for you is the best build for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

Check the warrior bars on PvXwiki. Do you see anything Remove Hex? There's one with Defy Pain but that is for retarded heros. Shockaxe doesn't require hex removal because it can create its own openings with 2 strong knockdowns and a disabling interrupt. Warriors can work well despite not having broken shadowsteps and having to build up adrenaline prior to a fight. Heck some pro monks even bring Dshot because disabling VoR>trying to remove it.

Lol, you see plenty of pro Shock Axe Warriors getting their butts handed to them in RA by huge hex stacks they can do nothing about. I remember one recent match where I first met Mad Fury Xx (if you don't recognize the name, that's the leader of SpNv and a R7 Champion). He had pre-nerf Primal Rage War with Shock, I played my typical Dual Attunements blindbot. No we didn't have a Monk, but we won 7 games quite simply. 8th game was against a team with nobody to blind and a Monk, and we got wtfpwnt by huge hex stacks combined with caster hate. Two strong knockdowns and a disabling interrupt, the opportunity to create its own openings, no need for hex removal, and a rather painful loss. Yeah ...

Of course the match was stacked against us right from the start, and we were more likely to lose than anything - but the point is, don't say that standard Shock Axe 'does not need hex removal'. Not having hex removal is a drawback, end of story. If you go without it, it's because you're accepting that drawback in return for added power (in this case, Shock). You make the choice because you think having Shock > having hex removal, not because you don't need hex removal. In the case of the Assassin builds we're discussing, it is self-cleanup vs. shadowstep + IAS. If you think the shadowstep + IAS is superior, then by all means run it, although you will regret it if you run into me in RA.

Bobby2 · Mar 17, 2009, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

EDIT: I've decided there's no point continuing the quote wars. I've made my point, I've said what I want to say and I'm leaving it as it is (for now anyway). If you prefer to play your build in RA then by all means do so - what works for you is the best build for you.

Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

8th game was against a team with nobody to blind and a Monk, and we got wtfpwnt by huge hex stacks combined with caster hate

Would it have helped if you had Remove Hex on your bar?

moriz · Mar 17, 2009, 12:48 PM // 12:48

it would've raised the chance of winning from 0.0001% to 0.001%. however, the loss of shock will drop it right down to 0.000001%. not to mention, it also drops the chance of winning 7 in a row by 33%.